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Ethan and Andy Go to City.

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Hello, Andy. Hello, Ethan. Good to see you. And we're here for another episode of Ethan. And Andy. Go to City.

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Only today we're not going to city, are we?

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Exactly.

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Where are we going?

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We're going to the movie theater.

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We're going to the movies. All right. I forgot the popcorn. I apologize.

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I know. That would have been that would have been good.

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So we're talking baseball movies today.

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Exactly.

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It is a topic of many films, but some better than others.

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Very true. And for a while there, it was like baseball movies were like box off, box office poison, but then several of them started to do very well. That's right.

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So I I mean, for me, there's one baseball movie that stands so far above the rest, it's almost not worth talking about the rest, but we will. But my my number one baseball movie, without a doubt, is Bad News Bears.

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Yours? I think uh there are several that are in contention, but I think for me it's still the natural. There's there's something about it that just works and gets swept away and the sentimentality of it and the way it's shot, and it just no, I love the natural too.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I think it's I think it's a great film, and it and it really the whole, you know, that whole romantic notion of baseball generally, and you know, the green grass and the boys of summer and all that kind of stuff, The Natural as a film captures all that. So I agree. It's a fantastic film. My seventh grade English teacher was Paul Malamud, son of Bernard Malamud, who wrote The Natural. So he probably was not very happy about it. I it was not out when I was in seventh grade, so I did not get to discuss it with him. It's a different movie than book, but what isn't? So I'm saying, yeah. What is it? What is it about that? I mean, that the natural is such a fantasy.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Exactly. And it's like it's like a fairy tale. Robert Redford, you know, even though he was I mean, but he's playing an older uh baseball player for most of it. And then then they shoot the beginning of it when he's young with far away and bosses. He still seems to have like the physicality of a baseball player in a lot of the scenes. Sure. And there's just something about it, like you said, the romantic notion of baseball that it really can make a difference and that somebody can devote their lives to it and people's dreams can come true.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Sure. And good, and somehow baseball is good that triumphs over evil. Exactly. But the you know, the the big fantasy obviously is he's this incredible up-and-coming pitcher, but then he becomes an incredible old guy hitter. Right. But yeah, no, I mean if you if you love baseball for its romanticism, it's hard to beat the natural, really. I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yeah, I think it's is a combination of all the elements of it. I mean, you know, the score, you know, the you know, you the music and the cinematography, and you know, even if it's you know crazy that the ball hits the lights and everything explodes. But I mean, it looks amazing. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I mean, it's and then that's I mean, come on. Every baseball fan in the world wet as a seven-year-old was sitting around thinking to themselves of hitting the big home run and maybe not smashing the lights. And you know, of course, and Glenn Close standing up in the stands, the sun right behind her as this great halo. It's yeah, no, there's it's it's a it's a great film. There's no doubt about it. There's no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, no. And the cast with Robert Duvall and Robert Prosky, and Darren McGavin and Kim Basinger.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, you know, it's just yeah, no, it's it's amazing. And um, yeah, no, it's a it's a I haven't seen it in a while, but it's a fantastic film. I remember at Middlebury, where you and I both went to college, Jason Rosenbaum, who was not a baseball fan in particular, was watching it or wanted to watch it, and I explained to him sort of the the significance of the fantasy of it, and and he he bought into it completely. It was fun to see him sort of light up as a non-baseball fan, really loving that film. So I remember that from many decades ago. So that's that kind of film.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

That's great. So, what is Bad News Bears? Why is that your favorite?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

For me, the Bad News Bears, first of all, it's funny, and you know me, I like comedy. So, but there's just a lot of sort of beyond the comedy, there's a just a there's a real there's a real you know, grit to it. Not not gritty like you know, Chinatown grit, but like, but just like these kids scuffling, they're not very good, their hero comes in, but then when when Mathard tells him to like catch every ball, they sort of ostracize him. It's like, you know, the the notion of teamwork in that, and then that they don't win at all. I love that they don't win at all. I'm sure. In fact, I just watched some anniversary, some anniversary of the Bad News Bears, and they had a ton of the cast members on stage and they were interviewing them, and they said they shot a version where they do win it all because the studio obviously insisted on it, but everybody but focus groups liked when they lost because that's what it should be, that's what that team should be, like almost there, but it doesn't matter. Uh, Walter Mathow is so brilliant, such a great comic actor. So I love that. And this, you know, I also love you know, it's a shame you'd never you could never make that movie again now, like him driving while drinking a beer and all the kids piled in his in his in his car without seatbelts, Tanner being a foul-mouthed bigot, like could never do that now. And but like there was an there was an innocence to that, and there was a freedom to that, and like the people, it wasn't like the bigots won. It was just like it was just like wise ass kids who didn't know enough or whatever. It was, I don't know. I just I loved it when I saw it, and I I could all if I watched it right now, I'd love it again. It's it's just a great movie, I think.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

No, I agree, and but I think I've told you this that's because I think during around the pandemic or whatever, but I showed it to my daughter and her friends, and they were shocked.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

And they said, How can you show this movie to us with all the drinking and the swearing and the you know, racial epithets and the you know, and it's about it's about showing overcoming that and people coming together, and you know, and right, you know, it's and those racial, I mean, like those racial epithets were like it wasn't like he he hated blacks or whatever, he hated everybody, like and including maybe himself, right? It was that character is great because he's just I mean, what do you do with a kid like that, right? Uh but it's hilarious too. And and I don't know, I I found it I get why people are worked up about it, but at the end it was completely harmless. And you know, he was no great shakes either, so who the hell is he to be mouthing off like that?

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I know.

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And then there's also that poignant moment where where Vic Morrow is playing the coach of the of the Yankees, and he's and his son is the pitcher, played by the kid from Coach Bedrick's father. What's his name? Yeah, who was that? I forgot. I can't remember his name. Anyway, but he's he slaps the kid on the mound, and then and then the kid walks off, like that's his man moment standing up to his dad, but he goes right to the arms of his mom. So he's like being a man, but he's also still a kid, you know what I mean? And like that that kind of foretold a little bit about the pressures of the Little League that have I mean, now it's like like parents threaten to murder umpires and things of that sort. And like I don't think it was quite that way in the 1970s when this movie was made, but you saw a hint of that in that moment. I don't know. I just think it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah, and you had sort of the reverse where you know Tatum O'Neill is pitching and obviously her arm is hurting and he's unpushing her, and then he realizes no, this is not right.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

And he puts Rudy Stein in. Yeah. Love Rudy Stein. And Tatum O'Neill is so good in that too. She's like, again, it's a little like she's she's a kid, but on the sort of the cusp of adulthood, right? She's she's you know, when you first see her, she's in a in a big straw hat and a long skirt, she's selling maps to the to the stars' homes and things of that sort. She's like this little businesswoman, but then she cries too, you know, she's like a little kid. I I don't know. I just there's I don't think there's anything bad about that movie.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

No, it's like the real there's a real sense of reality in a sense, yeah, to the movie. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Yeah. And and again, I think they're losing at the end is exactly how it should be, because even when the fairy tale seems to be going right, it doesn't always work out. But it's okay because they had, you know, and then they're jumping around and and and celebrating even though they lost, and they're doing it with beer as a bunch of 11-year-olds, but whatever. No, I I love that movie. But but we don't have to just stay on that. What uh what other movies do you like or dislike that are in the baseball genre?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Well, we have the uh Kevin Kostner Trafecta, Bull Durham, Field of Dreams, and then For the Love of the Game. Never thought. Which is a good baseball movie, a terrible romantic comedy, but a a pretty good baseball movie.

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Who's the uh who's the female leader?

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Kelly Preston.

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Oh, okay.

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Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

I never saw that. I hate Bull Durham. I I don't know, I've just always hated that movie. And I had a good discussion about it with a friend recently, and he's like, But that that scene on the Pitcher's Mound is so great. I'm like, and I said, go back and watch it again. It's really not that great. It's not that funny.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

So I yeah, I I hate Bull Durham. I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember liking it a lot. And I think the uh, you know, you have the cast. I mean, I guess this would be a thing where perhaps the romantic comedy is better than the the baseball portion of it. Perhaps, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yeah, that was Costner, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Tim Robbins is in it, Robert Wall, yeah. Yeah, but I I just did not like that. Field of Dreams is fun, it's good, it's it's not in baseball fantasy terms, it sets itself up to be a real fantasy, but I don't I think it pales in comparison to the natural in in that world.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

And again, it's it we concentrates on the characters, and you know, that's which is which is good, and but so yeah, baseball is sort of a vehicle for what for the characters learning learning things. It's not really about baseball.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

No, it's about right interpersonal relationships and your relationship with your dad and and what's the what's the uh Bert Lancaster characters, right? Like that moment of like he gets his one chance in the major leagues. But but but helps helps a fellow man rather than rather than take his take his shot. And um I mean there's some fun there's a like that fun line uh Rayleigh Otta has about they didn't invite Ty Cobb along because he's the son of a bitch or something like that. That was funny.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Uh I mean it's a good movie, but not one that I I need to clamor to see. Did you ever see John Mullaney do his bit like on the Oscars about Filda Dreams? You should look it up, it's on YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

I think I have, but I don't remember it that well.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

But he's just like to see that he's supposed to present best sound, but then he gets into it because his whole digression about describing the uh the mood uh Field of Dreams. Oh, I think they're like 30 seconds. Yeah, it's very funny.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah. Yeah. And then of course, the great James Earl Jones in that movie. Baseball! Yes!

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Baseball!

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Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

So how can you how can you down him?

SPEAKER_01 11:58

That's fun. Yeah, that's fun. I see you have eight men out there. I like that movie.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

A lot of people don't love it, but I I really did like that movie. I haven't seen it in quite a while, but it really it captured it, and you know, it's and it was so true that all these these gamblers were out to you know corrupt the game and you know, just to make money. And of course, now with gambling being legal, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

I know, yeah, I know, and like, you know, those two Indians, uh not Indians, sorry, those two Guardians pitchers who, you know, are facing charges, and you know, the game back then really could have teetered in a very corrupted way, and it was and it didn't. But it it is it does feel a little like it could now, you know. No. But I thought I found it very entertaining. I really did like that. I did like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

A League of Their Own is a very popular one. It's a good movie, and I say certainly, you know, it shines a light on uh what was sort of an unknown part of the history of baseball.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yes, and it's got some, you know, there's no crying in baseball, some memorable lines that way. I I I like that movie. I don't love that movie. There was parts of it that I thought, like, you know, when she does the split to catch the balls, like that's sort of gratuitous to me. And and I thought Gina Davis, that Gina Davis character was a little golly G-ish. I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

No, I think I actually sympathize more with uh the sister of Lauren Petty. You know, you know, she might have been a jerk, but I mean, you know, she really cared about the game, and Gina Davis didn't.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Right. I mean, she did, but not in the same way. Yeah. Right. But yeah, no, I mean it's an interesting film, and like you say, it was it shines a light on I mean, I I don't I don't know that anybody or not very many people understood that there was a Women's Baseball League back then. Yeah. And now it's very much known, and I think that movie has everything to do with it. I think we covered a lot of them. We've got Moneyball up there too. We should talk about that, because that's sort of a seminal film in terms of capturing a what really was a revolution in the way baseball was was overseen. Yeah.

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Billy Bean was a longtime GM of the A's, and you know, just the A's did not have the money to compete in the uh traditional way. And so with uh aid of of several other people, you know, they found a way to find undervalued players. Now, of course, the thing is that everybody is sort of looking at the same thing. So maybe there's, you know, now you have to switch it up and right. But I mean, it was the you know, they could find somebody who like they talk about replacing uh players in the aggregate. Right. And there's this whole analytical thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

I'm not looking to replace Giombi. I just need three players who can combine to do it. Yeah, a lot of things, a lot of people are like the concept of money ball is finding is really about finding the market inefficiencies and exploiting them. That's really what it was about. And nobody kind of understood the importance back then of on-base percentage. That was the hot moment for that, right? He gets on base, he gets why he gets on base, right? So, but yeah, I mean, it's it's based on a real guy and a real you know development in baseball. And it it did the money money ball concept, not the movie, but the money ball concept did change the way baseball is overseen now by by ownership. It's it's so data-driven. And and Billy Bean was like one of the first people to do that. Yeah, and if you look the funny thing is, if you look back, he was using very rudimentary data, like data that was kind of available to everybody, didn't take a lot of delving into to find it. And now it's like, you know, I mean, I'm not even well versed on it, but like ozone and and and you know, and launch angle and all these things that that that you know data heads are looking at now are so much more sophisticated, so much deeper than does get on base, you know. But but that that attitude is what led to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

And I guess just to bring all back to uh the Mets, you know, Davy Johnson was one of the very first people to use a computer to you know figure out matchups and other things. And you know, here that was a you know revolution in and of itself.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

It was. I remember that being a big deal that you know David Johnson uses a computer, but but it's true. I mean what I do lament, if we can break out of Hollywood a little bit, is that I think you know, the the pursuit of the three true outcomes has really made the game boring in a lot of ways. So I know that Manfred gets a lot of heat about you know shilling for the owners all the time, but they are his employer, employers. But but I think like, you know, the pitch clock and and the and the and the encouragement to to bring back the speed game and to not block. I was actually against outlawing the shift because I thought, well, just hit the other way, damn it. But but that's really worked and it's brought the base hit back, which is a lot more palatable than just waiting, watching people strike out or Homer. And that kind of all in its way has its roots in Bill James and his and in Billy Bean and what Money Ball depicts. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

No, and it gets to, you know, it it starts from one place and then sort of changes other things because it's simultaneously you had you know pitchers basically like trying to pitch as you know as hard as they possibly could, you know, and either you're either you know against a 100 mile an hour fastball, uh you are gonna strike out or hit a home run. So it's like you know, everything sort of feeds on each other, and it's trying to be nice to bring a little more balance.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

I mean, and we talked about it in an earlier podcast. Zach Thornton is finding success by having control and not throwing, you know, 100 miles an hour. He's not gonna be a top of the rotation guy, but there is room for that. And I think that that's sort of what happens in in in life, right? Is that something is the hot ticket and the pendulum swings way too far over here, and you gotta sort of bring it back. I mean, it's not just baseball that does that, but since that's what we love so much, it's easy to see it there. That's true. And now there's also really crappy baseball movies, Angels in the outfield, yeah. Things that I never I knew I would hate before even bothering to buy a ticket. So I think I saw about half of the rookie and oh now I will tell you this about the rookie. The rookie is about high school pitching coach. I mean high school coach who is that is that who became to and that's a real story. Yeah, his name was Jim Morris. And I was with Channel One at the time, and I actually did a story on that. We went to Big Lake, Texas, where Jim Morris was the coach, and I interviewed the man, and oh I didn't interview him there because he was already in the minors, but I interviewed some of his players and the and the faculty, and then I think he was playing for the Durham Bulls of all teams, and we went and and and met him and talked to him at the stadium. So I have a little bit of a soft spot for that. That was Dennis Quaid, I believe, played Jim Morris in the title, in the in the um in the movie. In the movie. So I have a soft spot for that.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

It's not a great film, but it's yeah, and I guess there's also the the sequel problem. I mean, like, you know, but not so much even the bad news bears like Major League, the first one was was pretty good. I never saw it. Yeah, but the sequels were terrible. And that was, you know, they're always that's a Hollywood thing of trying to milk as much money as possible out of a genre.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Exactly. Franchise one success and then keep going. It's interesting you say that because in this YouTube video I watched where they were interviewing some of the cast members who were now, you know, middle-aged paunchy men, but they all admitted that like the sequels were terrible, especially like they said, okay, we understood breaking training, but like we should never have done go to Japan. Like they were like just almost embarrassed that they had done it. But you know, that movie without Tatum O'Neill and without Walter Mathau is nothing. I mean, that's that's that dynamic is what makes that movie. So the sequels without them was a stupid idea. But again, like you said, it was just the studios trying to like bank off the name. There's that Richard Pryor one. Well Bigelong traveling also. That was a good one. I I mean I saw that one years ago, but that was that wasn't bad. Yeah. There was 42. Yeah, and Javik Bozeman and Harrison Ford both were really good in that. I'm not I'm not a fan of I'm not a huge fan of the biopec genre, so that I find so it was a little hard for me. But you know, I was a huge Jackie Robinson fan.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Yeah, obviously I never saw him play, but the concept of Jackie Robinson, and you know, I come from a long line of Brooklyn Dodger fans, so that was Yeah, there have been a lot of those things that I mean, you know, of course there was uh various Babe Ruth stories, there was debate with John Goodman and then of course there's Pride of the Yankees and Garrett Cooper and so supposedly they're redoing Pride of the Yankees or doing the Lou Gehrig story again.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Oh, I think I heard that, yeah. There was also Bang the Drum Slowly, which a lot of people don't know of Robert De Niro and Michael Moriarty. Yeah, I haven't seen that in decades, but I remember it being a fun and entertaining film. So did they ever make a movie out of ball four?

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I don't think so. I don't think so. I thought they would. Maybe they would have had to change all the names, but even so. Why would they have to change the thing? Yeah, yeah. That would have been interesting.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah, I mean, I think that I mean those are the I I like I said at the beginning, there's a lot of baseball movies I won't watch just because I love the game so much and I don't want to see it like I don't want to see it in a way that makes me eye roll.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Well maybe we'll uh see if we can put out a poll if seeing if any uh listeners uh want to pick what their favorite movie is.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Yeah, maybe a comment or two about why. Just be nice. Yeah. Oh, here's an interesting thing. I just found out. So there's a scene in the the section of Bad News Bears where Kelly Leek, who is the you know, the the good player that they recruit, that that Amanda recruits, and Matho tells him anything you can catch, catch. So he's like, you know, running in front of left fielders, right fielders, infielders just catching the ball. And then as they're coming off the field, this kid on the other team turns to Tanner and says, Does he go to the bathroom for you too? And Tanner like chases him, throws it. That kid who says delivers that line is Walter Mathow's son. I found that out. I found that out in this YouTube video I watched. So just a little bit of trivia. I'll tell you, check that out. Yeah, that's fun. So good luck editing this one.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Well, anyway, it's been another episode of Ethan and Andy. Go to the city, go to the movie theater.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Go to the movies. There's a little special twist on our on our usual podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

But we'll see you again soon. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

All right.